Fwd: Please consider if your locale could default to UTF-8 for outgoing email
Ep A la llista de traducció de Mozilla comenten que cada llengua caldria considerar si vol canviar la codificació de caràcters per defecte a UTF-8 en l'enviament de missatges de correu. Si voleu seguir la conversa, és aquí: <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.l10n/PH7tF9m8vUY> Actualment, el català té configurat que els missatges s'enviïn per defecte en ISO-8859-1. En principi jo no veig inconvenients per fer el canvi, que sembla prou lògic, però no sé si algú en sap més i creu que no seria bona idea... Anybody? salut jordi s -------- Missatge original -------- Assumpte: Please consider if your locale could default to UTF-8 for outgoing email Data: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 12:30:13 +0200 De: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi> A: dev-l10n@lists.mozilla.org, dev-apps-thunderbird@lists.mozilla.org Yesterday, the default character encoding for new outgoing email in the en-US localization of Thunderbird changed from ISO-8859-1 (which really means windows-1252 labeled as ISO-8859-1) to UTF-8. (Thanks Magnus!) Previously, many other localizations had already set the default character encoding for new outgoing email to UTF-8. This localizations are: Arabic Belarusian Greek Farsi Georgian Macedonian South Ndebele Panjabi Polish Romanian Russian Serbian Swati Southern Sotho Tsonga Venda Vietnamese Xhosa Traditonal Chinese Zulu Note that this isn't just a matter of African languages that have to use UTF-8 using UTF-8. The above list includes languages that do have Thunderbird-supported legacy encodings (Arabic, Belarusian, Greek, Farsi, Macedonian, Polish, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Vietnamese, Traditional Chinese). I encourage other localizations to consider whether they'd be ready to change the default for outgoing email (mailnews.send_default_charset in messenger.properties) to UTF-8. The only reason not to would be regionally still-popular UTF-8-incapable email clients. (Unlikely at this day and age.) In particular, since the Belarusian, Macedonian, Russian and Serbian localizations have already been able to make the switch to UTF-8, it is very probable that the Bulgarian and Ukrainian localizations could do so, too, at this time. I'd also like to especially encourage the German, Italian and Breton localizations to consider if they could make the switch to UTF-8. These three locales currently default to ISO-8859-15 for outgoing email. This doesn't make sense, because: 1) ISO-8859-15 is a younger encoding than UTF-8. If you are worrying about UTF-8 being too new to be supported, on newness grounds, you should worry even more about ISO-8859-15! 2) Compared to ISO-8859-1, ISO-8859-15 was motivated by three things: less common French letters mysteriously omitted from ISO-8859-1, transliterations in the Finnish context (totally missing the point of transliterations!) and the euro sign. When the French and Finnish localizations as well as many other localizations used in the Eurozone don't need to default to ISO-8859-15, German, Italian and Breton almost certainly don't need to, either. But instead of changing back to ISO-8859-1, let's treat this as an opportunity to switch to UTF-8. - - Currently, Thunderbird already silently upgrades a message to UTF-8 even when the default is something else if the message contains characters that can't be expressed in the preferred legacy encoding, so it's not like the defaults prevent people from writing stuff in email. So why bother changing the default then? The reason why Thunderbird doesn't always use UTF-8 for outgoing email is that way back when UTF-8 support was initially added to email clients, older email clients out there didn't all already supports UTF-8, so it makes sense to use already-supported legacy encodings when possible. But that was a long ago. UTF-8 was invented over 20 years ago and at least for the past decade, the ability to receive UTF-8 has been commonplace. We should stop pretending that UTF-8 avoidance still adds value when pretty much everyone already uses email clients capable of receiving UTF-8. The Gaia email client already simply uses UTF-8 for all outgoing email. The UTF-8 avoidance capabilities don't come for free. In addition to having to maintain encoders for legacy encodings (which needs to happen to support form submissions in Firefox anyway) and having code complexity to deal with the silent upgrade to UTF-8 (which isn't that much additional code complexity considering what Firefox form submissions require anyway) it means having to maintain the capability of the HTML serializers (for HTML mail) to output encodings other than UTF-8 and it comes with the UI burden (both in terms of adding more stuff that the user may end up thinking about and in terms of adding a ball and chain legacy to code maintenance) since we seem to feel that if there is the possibility to use encodings other than UTF-8, there should be UI for it. (My primary interest in this is the inertia that Thunderbird having UI for this imposes on making encoding-related changes to Firefox.) So the two previous paragraphs seem to argue for removing the configurability and just always sending UTF-8. What's this about localizations changing the default configuration then? Changing the default configuration is a first step that makes reducing configurability and the associated code complexity less scary in the future. Making a change like this product-wide regardless of locale tends to bring up concerns that maybe the email client environment for some locale out there isn't ready yet. As more and more locales make the call that they can make the switch and default outgoing email to UTF-8, the concern of the form "Where *I* live, we don't have problems with this but I *worry* that *they* over *there* do." becomes less of a source of inertia. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@hsivonen.fi _______________________________________________ dev-l10n mailing list dev-l10n@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
Sempre que he tingut un ordinador a les mans que s'ha comprat fora ( p. ex. Àsia) li he fet un ''dpkg reconfigure locales'' i la codificació ha estat sempre a UTF-8 pel tema del teclat i mai hi ha hagut cap problema amb res (i entre el programari instal·lat es troba el Mozilla Thunderbird i rl Firefox). Suposo que tot és qüestió d'enviar uns quants correus de prova i verificar què passa en determinades situacions. Si necessiteu un cop de mà, jo faig servir el Thunderbird com a gestor de correu per defecte i tinc màquines amb Linux i Windows i mòbils i tauletes amb Android... Benny. El dia 31/01/2014 14:37, "Jordi Serratosa" <jordis.lists@gmail.com> va escriure:
Ep A la llista de traducció de Mozilla comenten que cada llengua caldria considerar si vol canviar la codificació de caràcters per defecte a UTF-8 en l'enviament de missatges de correu. Si voleu seguir la conversa, és aquí: <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.l10n/PH7tF9m8vUY><https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.l10n/PH7tF9m8vUY>
Actualment, el català té configurat que els missatges s'enviïn per defecte en ISO-8859-1. En principi jo no veig inconvenients per fer el canvi, que sembla prou lògic, però no sé si algú en sap més i creu que no seria bona idea...
Anybody?
salut jordi s
-------- Missatge original -------- Assumpte: Please consider if your locale could default to UTF-8 for outgoing email Data: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 12:30:13 +0200 De: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi><hsivonen@hsivonen.fi> A: dev-l10n@lists.mozilla.org, dev-apps-thunderbird@lists.mozilla.org
Yesterday, the default character encoding for new outgoing email in the en-US localization of Thunderbird changed from ISO-8859-1 (which really means windows-1252 labeled as ISO-8859-1) to UTF-8. (Thanks Magnus!) Previously, many other localizations had already set the default character encoding for new outgoing email to UTF-8. This localizations are: Arabic Belarusian Greek Farsi Georgian Macedonian South Ndebele Panjabi Polish Romanian Russian Serbian Swati Southern Sotho Tsonga Venda Vietnamese Xhosa Traditonal Chinese Zulu
Note that this isn't just a matter of African languages that have to use UTF-8 using UTF-8. The above list includes languages that do have Thunderbird-supported legacy encodings (Arabic, Belarusian, Greek, Farsi, Macedonian, Polish, Romanian, Russian, Serbian, Vietnamese, Traditional Chinese).
I encourage other localizations to consider whether they'd be ready to change the default for outgoing email (mailnews.send_default_charset in messenger.properties) to UTF-8.
The only reason not to would be regionally still-popular UTF-8-incapable email clients. (Unlikely at this day and age.)
In particular, since the Belarusian, Macedonian, Russian and Serbian localizations have already been able to make the switch to UTF-8, it is very probable that the Bulgarian and Ukrainian localizations could do so, too, at this time.
I'd also like to especially encourage the German, Italian and Breton localizations to consider if they could make the switch to UTF-8. These three locales currently default to ISO-8859-15 for outgoing email. This doesn't make sense, because:
1) ISO-8859-15 is a younger encoding than UTF-8. If you are worrying about UTF-8 being too new to be supported, on newness grounds, you should worry even more about ISO-8859-15!
2) Compared to ISO-8859-1, ISO-8859-15 was motivated by three things: less common French letters mysteriously omitted from ISO-8859-1, transliterations in the Finnish context (totally missing the point of transliterations!) and the euro sign. When the French and Finnish localizations as well as many other localizations used in the Eurozone don't need to default to ISO-8859-15, German, Italian and Breton almost certainly don't need to, either. But instead of changing back to ISO-8859-1, let's treat this as an opportunity to switch to UTF-8.
- -
Currently, Thunderbird already silently upgrades a message to UTF-8 even when the default is something else if the message contains characters that can't be expressed in the preferred legacy encoding, so it's not like the defaults prevent people from writing stuff in email. So why bother changing the default then?
The reason why Thunderbird doesn't always use UTF-8 for outgoing email is that way back when UTF-8 support was initially added to email clients, older email clients out there didn't all already supports UTF-8, so it makes sense to use already-supported legacy encodings when possible. But that was a long ago. UTF-8 was invented over 20 years ago and at least for the past decade, the ability to receive UTF-8 has been commonplace. We should stop pretending that UTF-8 avoidance still adds value when pretty much everyone already uses email clients capable of receiving UTF-8. The Gaia email client already simply uses UTF-8 for all outgoing email.
The UTF-8 avoidance capabilities don't come for free. In addition to having to maintain encoders for legacy encodings (which needs to happen to support form submissions in Firefox anyway) and having code complexity to deal with the silent upgrade to UTF-8 (which isn't that much additional code complexity considering what Firefox form submissions require anyway) it means having to maintain the capability of the HTML serializers (for HTML mail) to output encodings other than UTF-8 and it comes with the UI burden (both in terms of adding more stuff that the user may end up thinking about and in terms of adding a ball and chain legacy to code maintenance) since we seem to feel that if there is the possibility to use encodings other than UTF-8, there should be UI for it. (My primary interest in this is the inertia that Thunderbird having UI for this imposes on making encoding-related changes to Firefox.)
So the two previous paragraphs seem to argue for removing the configurability and just always sending UTF-8. What's this about localizations changing the default configuration then?
Changing the default configuration is a first step that makes reducing configurability and the associated code complexity less scary in the future. Making a change like this product-wide regardless of locale tends to bring up concerns that maybe the email client environment for some locale out there isn't ready yet. As more and more locales make the call that they can make the switch and default outgoing email to UTF-8, the concern of the form "Where *I* live, we don't have problems with this but I *worry* that *they* over *there* do." becomes less of a source of inertia.
-- Henri Sivonenhsivonen@hsivonen.fi _______________________________________________ dev-l10n mailing listdev-l10n@lists.mozilla.orghttps://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
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UTF-8 FTW -- S’ha enviat des del meu telèfon Android amb K-9 Mail. Si us plau, excusa la meva brevetat.
participants (3)
-
Benny Beat -
Jordi Serratosa -
Josep Sànchez